In article >,
 says...
>At 10:44 PM 9/20/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, in one of his more gushy moments,
>wrote:
>>Zut alors! Eva is deconstructing me!

>And in public yet!  Oh well.  At least you can count yourself lucky.  Did
>you see what she did to me a week ago?  Not a pretty picture!  It's much
>worse than deconstruction.  She disengaged me.  Publicly!

>>I am honored and touched, both at the
>>same time. Yet I fear she is casting her pearls before swine.

>Why is it that whenever I cast my jewels I only get derisory comments?
>What am I doing wrong?

Joe and Sam, you're not doing anything wrong. Her public disengagements,
or "deconstructions" [echoes of apparatchik speak ;-) ]   are simply
admissions of her inability to argue her case, a public surrender. Ms
Balogh often tries to put on a show of aloof arrogance, but it falls
flat in an Open Society because she is so naive. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I understand that Ms Balogh's formative years were in largely
wartime, and subsequently Stalinist, Hungary, which weren't noted free
speech environments...many emigres of her generation have since adapted
to living in an Open Society, but some haven't...has Ms Balogh?

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

If you have access to the WWW try http://www.hungary.com  You'll find a
myriad of info there.

Enjoy your stay in Hungary

Alex

A continuation of an old thread.

While flying around, I had a chance to check up on this theme, which eneded
up sort of unresolved during the last round.

One of the issues in comparisson with the west related to the
Encyclopedists. Well, it is true that the French were ahead, but have any
of you read their texts. The one on Hungary is particularly interesting
because it is rather confused and that section was written by Jaucourt who
was never even close to Hungary or any other part of Eastern Europe.

Some examples: "the Bulgars, the Hungarians, and the Wallachians were
neighbors in Asia as they are in Europe." "The language of Hungary is a
dialect of Slavic."

At least the Hungarian encyclopedia from 1699 is more factual in its
description of France.

There is a recent publication from good old Boston College by Prof Larry
Wolff titled "Inventing Eastern Europe." It should be a required  reading
for those who are deluded by the superiority of any thought processes.
Yes, there was some backwardness in the area after the Turkish expolsion,
but the extant western descriptions are not really "accurate". Please
remeber that this was the time when in several western countries there was
also significant backwardness both economically and culturally. In Scotland
and Ireland the English were keeping miners and peasants perhaps even more
oppressed than was the case for the peasants in Hungary. No surprise that
extensive emmigration took place to the colonies. The rebuilding of Hungary
after the Turkish occupation and the more than a century of warfare was an
enermous task, which was not helped by the Habsburgh exploitation. In spite
of thatand almost surprisingly there was also cultural development. It
again should not be a surprise that it was focused on Transylvania, which
was less hurt by the Turkish repulsion wars. As I have stated before the
Protestanism of Eastern Hungary was also a factor in the events. The
reformed chirches used Hungarian as the language of service and that by
itself was an accelerator for the improvements, because those churches
maintained contact with western reformed church dominated countries on a
much broader basis than that of the RC (hierarchy only) with Rome via
Vienna. If anything the Habsburgh domination in the XVIII century created a
more dismal situation than that which existed in the XVII century. The more
I look into it the more I am convinced that if Rakoczi won, the economic
and cultural development of the country would have been better.

Now, I may be again accused of preaching Hungarocentric history, but those
who feel that way should look into the extant literature from those times.
I do not feel that Hungarian culture is superior to any other, but I do not
suffer from an inferiority complex either, except perhaps in regard to the
sanity of most of our politicos, which feeling about them extends to even
today. It does not hurt either to reread the Zrinyi's "Torok afium ellen
valo orvossag" it is an advise that could have been heeded even in later
times.

Regards,Jeliko

Janos Zsargo writes:
> Kedves Jeliko,

> May I ask you what was your intention when you wrote this:

> >Well, they can always ally with the Chechens. That would make the
> >Europeans into a military power.

> Simple you are making fun with the Europians, or you had something to
say?

Almost right. I was making fun of the so called West European "military
powers" and also of your indicated *concern* with what Russia is going to
do. Obviously, for some folks, it did not say anything. So what's new.

Regards,Jeliko.

I haven't been back Hungary in the last few years, so if there was a
change in this respect, I wouldn't be aware of it.
        In cafes and restaurants, when you pay, you have to specify the
amount of tip you intend to leave. Ignorance of this may be particularly
embarrassing to "West-Hungarians": the waiter will get the impression you
don't want to leave a tip.  Thus, if you check is 540 and you pay with a
1000 bill, you have to say "I need change for 600" (hatszazbol kerek
vissza). Anyone has recent experience in this domain?           R

>To anyone who can help who speaks Hungarian....The group "Rock Szinhaz"
>presented a rock opera based on the
>Emperor Nero .  I do not read Hungarian, but I am fascinated by the language,
>especially the musicals presented by Rock
>Szinhaz.    I was wondering if there is a translation of the songs or at least
>the story line.  Can anyone at least translate the
>following song titles:
>
>     Merget Claudiusnak
>     Munkaorgia
>     Hasznalj ki minden percet!
>     Amig elek kerdeznem kell
>     Babszinhaz az elet
>     Tortenelmi lecke
>     Az eminens csaszar lesz
>     Reklam es atszervezes
>     Britannicus balesete
>     Csak tenne vegre asszonnya
>     A szeretet neveben
>

Poison for Claudius
Orgy of Work
Make use of every minute!
I'll have to ask as long as I live
Life is a puppet theater
Historical lesson
The prize pupil makes emperor
Advertisement and reorganization
The accident of Britannicus
If he only made a woman of me
In the name of love


Louis Elteto

Dear Bob:
It is still the correct way in m ost restaurants to leave a tip (Unless
of course you use credit cards)
Peter

On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Robert Hetzron wrote:

> I haven't been back Hungary in the last few years, so if there was a
> change in this respect, I wouldn't be aware of it.
>         In cafes and restaurants, when you pay, you have to specify the
> amount of tip you intend to leave. Ignorance of this may be particularly
> embarrassing to "West-Hungarians": the waiter will get the impression you
> don't want to leave a tip.  Thus, if you check is 540 and you pay with a
> 1000 bill, you have to say "I need change for 600" (hatszazbol kerek
> vissza). Anyone has recent experience in this domain?           R
>

The SZDSZ is in trouble. At least I think it is in trouble and I am
not alone. Although it is supposed to have a very steady electorate behind
it, its supporters feel that the party abandoned them and that the SZDSZ
lost its distinctive features once the leadership decided to join the MSZP
to form a coalition.

        The dissatisfaction among the SZDSZ steady electorate came to a head
in recent weeks for at least two reasons. One, Peter Tolgyessy, former head
of the party and its legal expert, left the party and moved over to the bloc
of independents. Apparently that move didn't come as a surprise to the
current party leader, Ivan Peto", because it has been obvious for at least
two years that Tolgyessy doesn't see eye to eye with the current leadership
concerning the party strategy. However, the many interviews which were
conducted with Tolgyessy pointed up some very real problems with the current
status of SZDSZ.

        Tolgyessy was against joining the coalition in the first place, but
let himself to be convinced--very much like myself in this respect--that
this was the best possible solution. In the last two years Tolgyessy came to
the conclusion that "the basic decision-making structure of the Horn
government is, by and large, the same as it was in the Kadar regime and that
the SZDSZ only assists in these decisions." And Tolgyessy gives, I think, a
classic example of so-called "decision-making" in the Horn government: "If
there is trouble, then the Hungarian government's first reaction is
postponement. It doesn't want to face facts. When things are become very
bad, then it fevereshly begins to improvise. Because the trouble is
monumental, it begins to actually carry out these decisions, but as soon as
the situation gets a little better, they immediately retract. This is
exactly how the Kadar regime handled the affairs of state. The whole
economic policy was based on theory of "huzd meg--ereszd meg" [tighten and
relax]." I don't think anyone could give a more accurate description of
decision making of the Horn government. In a my private letter to an
internet friend I called this--before Tolgyessy's interview
appeared--"totojazas" which is a slang world for "indicisive behavior." But
Tolgyessy's description is better: it is not facing the music, on the one
hand, and "feverish activity" on the other, followed by softening of earlier
decision. The whole thing leads nowhere.

        Tolgyessy wasn't the only one who was unhappy with the party's
position. Istvan Eorsi, one of the charter members of the free democrats,
wrote the following: "The main question of the coalition from the point of
view of the Free Democrats can be summarized as follows: Is it worth, as
silent accomplices, to play a bit part in a regime which evokes the
government morality of the fatherland a la Mikszath; in which the roles of
the aristocracy and the gentry have been replaced by two-bit oligarchies
from the one-party state, and the nouveaux riches. For what kind of realized
results is it worth to dirty ourselves?" That piece of writing really upset
the media which, by and large, are sympathetic to SZDSZ. Eszter Radai, a
well known tv personality and frequent contributor to leading weeklies, had
a long interview with Eorsi in *168 ora* (September 10). Here are bits and
pieces from that interview:

ER: You said that you will give me an interview only if you can tell your
opinion of *168 ora.*

IE: At the moment I don't have an opinion because I stopped reading the
paper months ago. But I will be able to tell you why I stopped reading the
paper. I consider *168 ora* among those liberal papers which lost their
intellectual independence." And then continued to tell his opinion of the
MSZP members' dirty deals in politics and in economic life in which the
SZDSZ itself becomes dirty.

        With these criticisms then the media confronted Gabor Kuncze, the
SZDSZ minister of interior. Kuncze's answer was that Eorsi is not a
politician; he is an independent intellectual, writer and publicist, and
therefore it is easy for him to criticize. They, on the other hand, must
make compromises. However, even Kuncze had to admit that Tolgyessy's
criticism of the party losing its distinctive features is "something which
is not entirely without foundation." In any case, friends of mine who had
voted for the SZDSZ at the last two elections are in a quandry. They don't
have a party to go to but at the same time they are unhappy with the SZDSZ
as it is now.

        Yesterday, I read a brief OMRI announcement about Imre Dunai's dirty
economic deals in connection with the Russian oilgate as it was called at
the time--about two months ago. Dunai, minister of industry, just resigned.
The writer of the brief news item was wondering how this new revelation will
affect the relationship between the MSZP and the SZDSZ. Although I don't
quite see the connection (it might be my fault) we will see what will happen
next.

        Eva Balogh


        Tolgyessy wasn't the only one from the SZDSZ who was unhappy with
the role of the party in Horn's government. Istvan Eorsi wasn't happy either
and wrote an article in which he openly asked the party to leave the
coalition because otherwise the SZDSZ is nothing but "silent accomplice

Albert - At 08:37 PM 22/09/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Aniko,
>
>I meant disagreeing whit you and Sam.
>
>We speak about Hungary.
Correction Albert  - The discussion you replied to was not just speaking of
Hungary/ians.  Therefore your comments - interesting as they may be are
totally out of context.  As such, please do not be surprised at my unsavoury
remark last night - an even today, I cannot see their relevance.
Regards,
Aniko

Lajos Monoki wrote:


>A lot of hungarian newspapers are available on-line:
>
>http://www.nepszabadsag.hu  Nepszabadsag
>http://www.mhirlap.hu       Magyar Hirlap
>
>And MTV (Hungarian television)
>
>http://www.mtv.hu
>http://www.objektiv.mtv.hu   Objektiv
>
>And some local "news" in Szeged at
>
>http://www.tiszanet.hu  (mainly in hungarian)
>
>Bye,

        Thank you, Lajos. I knew about Nepszabadsag and Magyar Hirlap, but
not about MTV and Objektiv. Thanks for the tips. I will check them out.

        Eva Balogh

I am back from a vacation in Colorado (after this trip considered by my wife
and I the most beautiful place on earth) . On Friday we went to the Chili
Fiesta in Pueblo (the place where they make the government publications).
They had some interesting pepper roasting machines where they were roasting
up to four bushels of chili peppers at once ($10/bushel). It reminded me how
my mother used to do it one at a time on the gas burner in the kitchen.

And now, back to reading the 389 pieces of e-mail collected in my in-box.

Gabor D. Farkas

You should, at least, let us know how your mom did it.  Maybe some of us
would like to try it.

Sandor a loko"to"

At 6:35 PM 9/23/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>Lajos Monoki wrote:
>
>
>>A lot of hungarian newspapers are available on-line:
>>
>>http://www.nepszabadsag.hu  Nepszabadsag
>>http://www.mhirlap.hu       Magyar Hirlap
>>
>>And MTV (Hungarian television)
>>
>>http://www.mtv.hu
>>http://www.objektiv.mtv.hu   Objektiv
>>
>>And some local "news" in Szeged at
>>
>>http://www.tiszanet.hu  (mainly in hungarian)
>>
>>Bye,
>
>        Thank you, Lajos. I knew about Nepszabadsag and Magyar Hirlap, but
>not about MTV and Objektiv. Thanks for the tips. I will check them out.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Here is one more:

 http://www.vilaggazdasag.hu

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

Just wanted to drop a line of thanks and appreciation to:

Eva - re Potpourri & SZDSZ & the Coalition
Peter - re 40 years ago 1 & 2 (Just one really stupid question; what is "Ibid")
?
Jeliko - re 1700s

Thanks to all for extending endless efforts to share - mostly thanks for
educating me on all these topics!!!!

Best regards,
Aniko

At 06:21 PM 9/20/96 -0400, Eva Balogh tried to explain humor to Z. Szekely.

What a waste of time!!

Gabor D. Farkas
(another member of the Gang)

At 03:38 PM 9/19/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:

>Some rumlings on the issue.
>
>There should be some rules for this game. First of all cultures can be and
>are different not only in countries but in some cases even in regions.
>Different folks put different attributes into the culture "basket" thus
>further changing the denominator. I have stayed out of this discussion for
>a long time, but I have got a headache writing about plutonium
>transmutation, so this is a rest from an even bigger and more real problem.
>I have read discussion of government policy, food, tolerance, education
>etc., issues by different contributors, all packed into the culture basket.
>
>At the same time we are all victims of our individual experiences, so what
>actually culture is has a different meaning for everyone. In my opinion, at
>best we can safely say that cultures are different, they do not have to be
>converted into a superiority/inferiority type classification. One's opinion
>can (and often does) also change by being immersed in a culture for a
>longer time than those derived just based initial observations.
>
>Even today from some of my Hungarian compatriots I hear comments, that
>there is more culture in Hungary because there are more opera performances
>in Hungary than in whatever locality they live here.
>At the same time many of these folks at best attended only the opera
>kavehaz in Hungary. I live in Columbus OH where there is an opera company
>(operating in the black) with nearly sold out performances. The quality is
>variable - but it is so in most places. The opera here seats something like
>a thousand people and in addition to Columbus one can see opera in
>Cleveland and Cincinnati also. Thus the opera audience is pretty
>proportional to that of Hungary if considered on a population and
>geographic area basis. But here a much larger percentage of the population
>can easily afford recorded (both sound and picture) operas and often listen
>to an opera whenever they please. I know this is only one aspect of the
>many in the basket, but the significant item is that one does not have to
>be seen at the opera to enjoy it. It is not a status symbol. It is a
>question of whether one likes it or not. The same thing can be said about
>books, yes there is a plethora of junk books, that there is access to
>almost any book one wants to read, even if it is through the library which
>does not cost anything. The interlibrary loan service can get almost any
>book published in the world.
>
>I maybe picky, but to me, having paper in the toilet is also part of the
>culture basket together with its cleanliness. I have seen that North
>American amenity matched only by a few places in the world.
>
>Education level at equal age is certainly not as good in the US in the
>earlier stages than that of most of Europe. But once one gets to the
>highest level of educational opportunity there is no match for the US.
>That is what draws many scientists to US institutions.
>
>However, the major difference (and the unstated reason behind many culture
>complaints) has nothing to do with culture per se. It is very often a
>personal comparative economic and status evaluation. Just because one is an
>"educated" person in the US he or she does not have special privilages.
>Someone else can have a superior economic position (not necessarily as a
>global average). As an example a university professor can be a "special"
>person in Hungary, but not treated with any particular deference in the US.
>This lack of "status symbolism" often bothers people from Europe. The
>"average Joe" is treated the same way as the person who thinks that he is
>an "above average Joe". So he interprets that the lack of special respect
>for him is a lack of culture.
>
>I am also upset with the expectations of many citizens of European and some
>Asian countries that the Us should pull out the hot chestnuts from the
>fire. My basic question is why should my children be killed when yours are
>safe? As an example Yugoslavia was made by France and England why is it a
>US responsibility to assist the safety of its falling apart. I always laugh
>when I read Seton-Watson's statement that it is the vile Hungarians who
>prevented the Croats and the Serbs or the Czechs and the Slovaks living
>lovingly together. Yes, I am an isolationist in many respect. Why is it
>that the US gets blamed for staying out, entering or leaving (whatever it
>happens to be) from any conflict? Why is it that many clamor for renouncing
>the payment of Hungary's debt to the bank for example which has my
>retirement fund? They were not complaining when without working more they
>were paid better or could afford more "culture" from borrowed funds.
>
>I suggest that when talking about culture, whatever we put into the basket,
>we should discuss the differences without assigning superiority or
>inferiority to anybodys culture.
>
I second every word.

Gabor D. Farkas

On 23 Sep 1996 04:32:15 GMT,  (George Szaszvari)
wrote:
[.....]
> Ms Balogh often tries to put on a show of aloof arrogance, but it falls
[.....]
> Ms Balogh's formative years were in largely

[....].has Ms Balogh?
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

Mr. Szaszvari,

If you are going to pretend to be formal, you ought to refer to Eva
Balogh as Dr. Balogh, not Ms.

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On 22 Sep 1996 20:51:11 -0400,  (Stowewrite) wrote:

>
>Al, in all seriousness I think you need to talk to your doctor.
[....]
>I think you need to get yourself checked out. I'd feel a
>lot better about flaming you if you did.

There you go again, Sam! When are you going to pick on someone your
own size? :-)

BTW (Mr. Albu, are you reading this?), I offer discounts to
co-nationals....

Bandi

>
>"I remember the book depository where
>They crowned the King of Cuba..."
>-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

There is a Budapest Park in Etobicoke.  It has been named thus in memory
of the 56 revolution.  I wonder if anyone knows if there will be some
reunion commemorating the 40th anniversary?
Agnes

On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:41:14 -0400, Johanna Granville
> wrote:

>
>Hello. I'm going to Budapest for the first time.
[....]
>Finally, are there any Hungarian customs I should know about?

- If invited for dinner, do bring something, but NOT red roses;

- Don't wear Bermuda shorts and sandals to St. Stephen's Cathedral;

- Don't rent a car. The driving in Budapest will surely drive you mad;

- (Since Hungarians don't observe the 3-ft interpersonal distance
    don't tell them that they have dragon breaths;

- Don't point out the misspelled English words on people's T shirts;

- Getting "in the mood" (the only translation I know of 'mulatni')
  doesn't mean preparing for sex, but rather some heavy drinking and
  singing (with the prima's) about your mother or lost loves;

Johanna, I hope you read these in the spirit in which they were
meant.... just a bit of humor!

Budapest is one of the world's great cities and Hungarians are truly
an unusual bunch of people: polite, well-mannered, deferential (albeit
men tend to be a bit chauvinistic toward women), cultured,
knowledgeable, warm (but not gushy), curious, generous, and quite
sophisticated. If you don't get bogged down on the Hungarian tendency
to argue about anything and everything, you will find them to willing
and excellent discussion partners.

And they are nowhere near as arrogant as Parisians are... :-) (that's
an inside joke).

Have a wonderful trip. Take lots of pictures, 'cose you will be
talking about them for years to come.

Cheers,

Bandi

P.S. (How did I do, folks?)
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

>        This note may be a bit disjointed but this weekend I read hundreds
>of articles from Hungarian newspapers collected in a publication called
>*Tallozo.* *Tallozo" means "digest," but unlike Reader's Digest *Tallozo*
>republishes newspaper articles in their entirety. It also includes
>provincial papers, not just the large national dailies. In addition,
>interviews on the radio and on television are also included. Here I simply
>collected bits and pieces of news which I found intriguing one way or the
>other. The first articles appeared more than a month ago--in the middle of
>August.

A lot of hungarian newspapers are available on-line:

http://www.nepszabadsag.hu  Nepszabadsag
http://www.mhirlap.hu       Magyar Hirlap

And MTV (Hungarian television)

http://www.mtv.hu
http://www.objektiv.mtv.hu   Objektiv

And some local "news" in Szeged at

http://www.tiszanet.hu  (mainly in hungarian)

Bye,

******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe

Mr. Jeliko wrote:

>Janos Zsargo writes:
>> Kedves Jeliko,
>
>> May I ask you what was your intention when you wrote this:
>
>> >Well, they can always ally with the Chechens. That would make the
>> >Europeans into a military power.
>
>> Simple you are making fun with the Europians, or you had something to
>>say?
>
>Almost right. I was making fun of the so called West European "military
>powers" and also of your indicated *concern* with what Russia is going to
>do. Obviously, for some folks, it did not say anything. So what's new.
>
>Regards,Jeliko.

If this is your opinion about the West Europian "military powers" why
do you expect them to solve any problem? I guess you don't expect
anything from them, but why others (like Sam) do (I doubt they have
better opinion about the West Europians)?
About Russia, do you have anything to support your point or you just
made up your mind and that's it?

J.Zs