Dear Amos;

At 08:35 AM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote:

>    Friends,
>
>    Thanks to Gabor Fencsik,  we had a discussion,  a short one but
>    a discussion,  about free speach.  Gabor has  given  us a short
>    summary of the  legal history  of free speach  in the US.  This
>    history indicates that free speach, just like freedom in gener-
>    al, is not limitless. It is important, therefore,not to confuse
>    freedom with license. Freedom, at any level,  is an action with
>    responsibility. Freedom is not a license to do anything accord-
>    ing to one's whim. This is the rule that is, or should be,  ap-
>    plied to any debate. It is that simple - or that difficult.
>                                                               Amos
>
There's another old saying about that my parts of my mother's family was
fond of: "your freedom ends where mine begins."  In other words, if
_freedom_ is _for_ all--so is _responsibility_ _to_ all, to ensure _all_
have equal amounts of freedom...

The U.S. is actually gradually losing freedom because so many people are
content to allow increasing irresponsibility.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
e-mail: 
tel./fax: 408-223-6102




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Gabor et al;

Surprise!  I'm back (no, it's not Pellionisz--just a refugee from the area
hospitals--I hope this time I can stay out of them for a longer period of
time...).  I'm still recovering--especially since my nearly equally
recovering cousin and I thought we were in better shape than we really were
and decided to build a "macadam" road--the hard way--by hand--part way up a
mountain a few days ago...  I'll post more about all this in some other
message, the Hungarian Constitution--any nation's constitution, for that
matter, is an important subject.

At 12:23 PM 5/5/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Dears,
>
>  As you might know, Hungary's constitution will be replaced and
>  a new version is being circulated for public debate in Hungarian newspapers.
>  Many people think that the public debate can not be organized as
>  Hungarian Law prescribes it. I heard that Jozsef Hollosi
>  would offer his help in conducting an Internet debate.
>  Considering the fact that Jozsi has enough trouble without our novel ideas
>  first I would like to ask anybody who believes that this whole stuff
>  is not a bunch of crap to speak up in the list. If you can
>  reach some poor Hungarian politician who wants to sink to the level
>  of the masses and share with them his or her noble opinion on the
>  Constitution of our country, it would be even nicer.

Many nations wonder why a few nations only, so far, the U.S. included seem
to  have real success with writing a constitution and adhering to it, and
many others do not.  I suspect the reason is in how--and by whom--for
whom--and what goals, it is written.  I cannot speak for the experiences of
many other countries with a lot of certainty.  Even the best of history
books--and huge quantities of those, and lots of conversations with citizens
of other countries don't provide all the answers to this interesting
question, but here's how it was done in the newly independent U.S.

First, although it was done by people who were for the most part financially
better off than many, and there were even a large number of lawyers (hence
John Adams famous comment during the 2nd Continental Congress in 1776), they
did not live such different lives in many ways than most people regardless
of  wealth.  Most lawyers, like John Adams, were also farmers.  Besides
that, they made their own furniture, clothing--even the cloth itself,
preserved food, designed and built their buildings, etc., etc..  Because it
cost so much to ship anything--plus the British government hadn't wanted the
colonies to develop manufacturing industries that might compete with those
of the "mother country,"  unless you were in the top few percent who could
import everything, you learned to make everything you could.  The families
were large, and often had at least a few servants (labor was cheap).  Thus,
a family farm and law office, or farm and commodity export business, or farm
and general store was a full-fledged small industry village.

Also, the rich and the poor had few real diversions and the "meeting
house"--church, community hall, etc. all in one, for most communities was
attended by all together--as frequently as they could find an excuse.  Poor
and rich alike knew each other very well--and each others' problems and
successes.

Thus, when the lawyers, farmer-surveyor-militiamen, cobblers, preachers,
bankers, etc. that comprised the Constitutional Convention (actually it was
supposed to be a convention to "reform the Articles of Confederation" but
went a bit farther) got together to write the U.S. Constitution, these
people really knew the common needs of their countrymen (and women).  The
constitution was written to address the greatest common needs and concerns.

Then, after it was proposed, it was sent to all the state legislatures for
review.  It was also widely printed in the existing media and circulated in
every town and village for comment.  The legislatures deliberated for some
time--inviting comment from the local communities to the legislators.  The
result was the Constitution passed--but at the same time, the Bill of Rights
was being attached--at the people's insistence.

Something like this process--a process that not only invites comment from
all adults, but amendment and change before adoption--is needed in Hungary,
and many other countries.  The goals also have to be the greatest common
good, and there must be a clear understanding, familiarity, experience or
whatever in the politicians who do the writing of the lives of most
Hungarians.  Hungary's Constitution, to be successful, must generally serve
the greatest needs and concerns of all Hungarians.

Hungary is a unique country--as is each and every country.  It has its own
history, culture, perspectives, etc..  It would do no good to borrow some
other nation's constitution wholesale if it is alien to Hungarian culture
and needs.  Many modern, successful constitutions--and the processes in
writing and adopting and amending them, and then enforcing them, should be
studied and considered in the light of Hungary's needs.  Perhaps Hungary
could take some from here, and some from there, and then modify all a bit
more and come up with something so great it might be the envy of
others--even the U.S..  The world offers a giant smorgasbord of experiences
and history. Hungary has a wonderful opportunity if its people will only see
and take advantage of that.  Hungarians have done that very well in the
sciences, now how about in the social development?
>
>  Yours truly reached the age when retirement form the Internet is
>  inevitable, so I do not think that I can personally participate in
>  the discussion. Yes, I ask you to actually do something, and then I
>  just leave the whole mess behind. It is an archetypical Hungarian
>  characteristic which made our nation so great and powerful. EG
>
The last time someone asked overseas Hungarians (in this case it was
Hungarian Americans) to do that, we came up with the atomic bomb.  Are you
sure you really want to try that strategy again???  ;-)

As a more recent small example, trust me, the rangers are going to be mighty
surprised at our repaired road, but if they ever try to completely regrade
things right there, those 8" rocks we packed down at the bottom of that
former ditch are probably going to do a number on the blades of the cat...

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA

e-mail: 
tel./fax: 408-223-6102





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Eva Balogh wrote:

 >... it is becoming clear to me that East
>Europeans don't have a clue how to conduct a "debate" meaning a "discussion
>of question by considering opposed arguments." The worst example of "debate"
>in the bad sense of the word is FORUM, the Hungarian-language list. There
>debates are simply personal attacks. If we don't like someone's ideas, let's
>attack him/her as a person. Let's say that he/she is a pathological liar.

Right on!  As when someone named Eva Balogh called someone whom she never
 met, but whose idea she disagreed with, a senile old man  ;-).

Oh, well.  The best way to support an argument is by supplying an example,
I'm told.

Regards,

Ferenc

Eva Balogh wrote:

>     Yes, Martha, Otto speaks Hungarian very well. I heard him on a
>shortwave receiver about six years ago. He has a slight accent, but he is
>absolutely fluent. The funny thing is that he "egy kicsit svabosan beszel,"
>he sounds like a Transdanubian sva'b (Hungarian-German) with a broad accent.

>From a Habsburg mouth it sounded very funny--vide'ki sva'b hentes-type of
>accent. (provincial German butcher). I like him very much, by the way. He is
>an intelligent man.
>
>        Eva Balogh

I have also heard Otto Habsburg, and not only on the radio.  His accent, far
from that of a
butcher, is typical of the aristocracy, whose members were his teachers from
early childhood.

Ferenc

OK, Stowewrit,


>Since you and I belong to the same server, I'm going to assume (and the
>assumption may be wrong) that you receive posts from this list at roughly
>the same time I do. If that is the case, you have either posted the above
>secure in the knowledge that Szucs has been booted off the list or you
>don't bother to read the postings at all. If the first is true, you have
>waited until the coast is clear to come out of hiding to stick your tongue
>out at me. If the second is the case, you are purposefully ignorant. I
>make no apology to you for taking on Szucs when you and many like you
>didn't have the guts to do it.
>Sam Stowe

OK, Sam, let's take those point one by one:

1.  I am sure you know the saying about avoiding statements that include
"assume" ;-).  Well, I don't get to read my mail every day, and I only got to
your kind remark a few minutes ago.  I think it is so much bunk, for two
reasons:  I was unaware of Szucs being "booted  off" a second time ( I know
he was kept off for 3 months before); also, it may have escaped your
attention that I posted a message some time ago deploring his attack on Eva
Balogh as a pathological liar.  If you can't recall and would like me to dig
it out for you, I will.

2.  What does "purposefully ignorant" mean?  Why would anyone want to be
ignorant?

3.  What makes you feel so superior as to decide who has guts and who
doesn't?  Is the capacity to match the opposition in mudslinging your
criterion?  If you are frothing at the mouth just like your opponent, it is
going to be hard to convince the others that you are any better than the guy
you are taking on.

Peace,

Ferenc

At 01:10 AM 5/6/96 -0400,  Ferenc Novak, who is a "great friend of mine", wrote
:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> >... it is becoming clear to me that East
>>Europeans don't have a clue how to conduct a "debate" meaning a "discussion
>>of question by considering opposed arguments." The worst example of "debate"
>>in the bad sense of the word is FORUM, the Hungarian-language list. There
>>debates are simply personal attacks. If we don't like someone's ideas, let's
>>attack him/her as a person. Let's say that he/she is a pathological liar.
>
>Right on!  As when someone named Eva Balogh called someone whom she never
> met, but whose idea she disagreed with, a senile old man  ;-).

        Sure thing. And I repeated it a few days ago. Because I don't quite
know what one ought to call a lawyer who allegedly practiced law in
Australia and became so famous that he was named a royal councilor (or
something similar) and who with all this legal knowledge wanted to sue the
World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in a class-action suit at
the, and now listen carefully, Supreme Court of the United States!!! I think
actually that I was quite nice to the old gentleman. I could have called him
an ignorant idiot.

        This was not the question of agreement or disagreement. Disagreement
was not the reason for thinking that the old man lost some of his marbles.
The reason was his total ignorance of international law, total lack of
knowledge of what the Supreme Court of the United States is all about, and
the ridiculousness of his ideas. I thought that such a class-action suit, if
it ever launched, would be thrown out of court (and not the Supreme Court!)
for lack of standing. But in the meantime, Hungary, on whose behalf this
suit was initiated, would have been made ridiculous in the eyes of the world.

        Eva Balogh

Greetings from the Hungarian Lobby (HL) List !

     The Hungarian Lobby list has been created by Bela Liptak and the
members of the UMCP Hungarian American Association to serve as a forum to
promote Hungarian views and interests. The mailing list is a mixed
language Magyar (Hungarian) / English (Angol) list. Anyone, regardless of
race, ethnic origin, religion or political belief can post to the
Hungarian Lobby. Please, save this letter for future reference.

     1996 will be the 1100th anniversary of Hungarian statehood, the 40th
anniversary of the Hungarian Revolution. 1996 is also an election year in
the United States, when the 1.6 million Hungarian-Americans could exercise
(for the first time ever) some political influence.

     HL's goal is protect Hungary from defamation and to protect, not only
the oppressed Hungarian national communities of the Danubian region, but
all ethnic minorities, including Jews, Romas and others.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                         FAQ - Hungarian Lobby
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contents

  1. What Is The Hungarian Lobby?
  2. How Does The Hungarian Lobby Work?
  3. How To Subscribe Or Unsubscribe?
  4. How To Post To The Hungarian Lobby?
  5. Sample of an Individualized Form-Letter
  6. Archives Of The Hungarian Lobby
  7. HunOR - Hungarian Online Resources
  8. Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ
  9. Useful Addresses
 10. Disclaimers



------------------------------

Subject: 1. What Is The Hungarian Lobby?

     The Hungarian Lobby (HL) is not a discussion group or a debating
society. Our goal is to influence our political leaders and the media
through the writing of letters and articles, which we send by E-mail,
fax-broadcasting and through regular mail.

     All HL participants are asked to post ALL letters they send to their
representatives or the press, so that we all can benefit from the ideas
contained in them and can give support, if we agree with them. Similarly
we would like you to post the news of all law or human rights violations
that you learn about within the Carpathian Basin, or any news of of
incomplete or erroneous reporting on Hungary in the Western press.  Please
send E-mail letters or news items directly to:  .  (THE HL
LIST WILL ACCEPT CORRESPONDENCE ONLY FROM ITS MEMBERS!)


------------------------------

Subject: 2. How Does The Hungarian Lobby Work?

     If you want to take part in our fax-chainletter efforts, and IF you
have an AUTOMATIC fax machine, please fax a note to Dr. Bollyky at
203-967-4845. An automatic fax-machine is one which will automatically
receive a fax broadcast without the need for being switched on manually.
Those who sign on are expected to sign and mail (if they agree with the
contents) the fax they receive to their representatives and/or local
papers and also to resend the fax-letter to one or more friends or
relatives.

     The home page of the Hungarian Lobby is at:

                  http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/

     The Addressbook page at:

             http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/addressbook/

contains the E-Mail addresses and fax numbers of all members of the USA
Congress, Senate, Newspapers and others outside the USA.  Old letters and
articles posted on HL can also be obtained on the World Wide Web at the
home page address:

               http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/

     The addresses of all European newspapers can be obtained from:

             http://www.dds.nl/~kidon/papers.html

     According to the present concept, the HL has no leaders. It is the
association of people, who care about justice and human rights, who feel
that their voice will be multiplied and their work will be more effective,
if they act together. Our present operation (which, I am sure will change
with time and experience), is as follows: When a member (ANY MEMBER) of
the HL feels, that we should speak up in connection with some deed or
event, he or she will compose a letter addressing that issue and send it
to a political leader or to a newspaper AND IN ADDITION to the HL list.
Members of HL, who agree with the received text, will read the letter and
if they agree with it, they too will mail it (or some version of it) to
their local papers and/or to their political representatives. In other
words, all members of HL can initiate an action or can participate in an
action initiated by others, if they agree.

     We have already succeeded to reach several hundred letters within 24
hours of learning about a human right abuse or an unlawful act. Our goal
is to increase that number into the thousands and to expand our span of
attention to include such problem areas as environmental abuses and
freedom of the press. In the following points, we will list the specific
deeds that we ask of you, if you join the HL:

     1)HL members should keep the E-mail (or Fax) addresses of their
President, Senators, Congressmen and local newspapers ready, so if the
occasion arises, they can send on a letter within minutes.

     2) We ask all HL members to agree that within 24 hours of receiving a
form-letter, they will read it, and if they agree with its purpose,
content and style, they will send it (or some variety of it) on, to their
own addresses.

     3) We ask all HL members to agree, that when they initiate a
chain-letter, they should carefully check the validity of its facts,
should weigh the importance of the topic and should use appropriate style.
When writing to a Senator, you should be formal and brief. Two paragraphs
are the best, but should never exceed one page. You should identify
yourself and outline your concern in the first paragraph. In the second
paragraph you should outline why that concern is important to the United
States.  You should always include your postal address in addition to your
title and signature. (Below, there is a typical chain-letter as an
example.)

     4) If you find the work of HL useful, please ask your friends and
relatives to join us.


------------------------------

Subject: 3. How To Subscribe Or Unsubscribe

To subscribe to the Hungarian Lobby, send the following in the body (not
the subject line) of an email message to  :

     subscribe hl

To subscribe to the digest version of the Hungarian Lobby, send the
following in the body (not in the subject line) of an email message to
 :

     subscribe hl-digest

Subscribing to the hl-digest list will not automatically unsubscribe you
from the hl list. Make sure, you are subscribed to only one of the list's
distribution forms, simply, by unsubscribing from the other.

To unsubscribe from Hungarian Lobby, send the following in the body (not
the subject line) of an email message to  :

     unsubscribe hl
or
     unsubscribe hl-digest

This will unsubscribe the account from which you send the message. If you
are subscribed with some other address, you'll have to send a command of
the following form instead:

     unsubscribe hl 
or
     unsubscribe hl-digest 

If you don't know what address you are subscribed with, you can send the
following command to  to see who else is on the list
(assuming that information isn't designated "private" by the owner of the
list):

     who hl
or
     who hl-digest

To retrieve the information you are currently reading, mail the command
below to  :

     info hl
or
     info hl-digest

If you want to search non-private lists at this server, you can do that by
mailing a command like:

     which string

This will return a list of all entries on all lists that contain "string".
To find out more about the automated server and the commands it
understands, send the following command to  :

     help


------------------------------

Subject: 4. How To Post To The Hungarian Lobby

     To post an article/message/question to the whole list, send it to
. It will be distributed automatically to all subscribers.
Note:  is the posting address for both the HL and HL-Digest
lists.

     The list is unmoderated; nobody screens the messages before they are
posted. Before you post to the list, be sure that your message is correct.
Use lines shorter than 80 characters since many mailers truncate longer
lines. Remember that what you post will be received by many people
throughout the world. Try to educate and be educated, although, do not be
afraid to ask any questions regarding Hungary and Lobbying. In particular,
if you ask a question, you should send a summary of the responses to the
list, thus allowing others to learn along with you.

     The most important part of your posting is the Subject field. The
subject line should not be longer than 40 characters. People screen
incoming e-mail by the subject line, so make it clear.

     If you are posting a long file, please split it into chunks which are
smaller than 50 kBytes. Always identify the part number and total number
of parts in the Subject line .

     As a courtesy to the other subscribers, it is a good idea to include
your name and e-mail address at the end of your message so that people may
contact you directly. The e-mail address in the message header can
sometimes be mangled en route to the other subscribers; including it
manually or in your signature file will ensure that others have your
proper e-mail address. (On the other hand, try to keep your signature down
to three or four lines; more than that wastes bandwidth.)

     If you are not sure that your post is successful, or if you have
problems or suggestions, contact us at  . If you do
not see your posted message within a day on the list, please let us know.
Please, do not repost a message without contacting us first.


------------------------------

Subject: 5. Sample of an Individualized Form-Letter

RE: Religious Discrimination In Romania

POTENTIAL ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-456-2461
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1245
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 202-225-4656

The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.58 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too am concerned about the oppression of the indigenous
Hungarian national community in Romania. I am particularly concerned about
the new language law which would destroy one of Europe's oldest, the
Hungarian school system in Transylvania.

I am also concerned, that while the property of the Romanian Orthodox
Church, which was also confiscated by the Communists, has been returned,
the church property of the Hungarian national community, has not been
returned. It includes 1,041 schools, 28 boarding schools, 20 teachers
residences, 16 hospitals and orphanages, 126 priests' houses and 70
convents. As you can see from this one example, the root cause of tensions
is not the desire of the minorities to maintain their cultural identities,
but the state-sponsored discrimination and persecution which is used to
forcibly assimilate them.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT, SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) It is in our national
interest to be the moral and ethical leaders of the free world. Therefore,
I would like to learn your views on this matter and the steps you might
take to help alleviate the suffering of the Hungarian national community
in Romania. There is no more basic human right as one's right to protect
one's church, property and the right to speak one's mother tongue, enjoy
one's culture. In a country such as Romania, which strives to enter the
European Community, the civilized world should not allow these basic
rights to be denied.

I know, that a letter from you to President Iliescu of Romania would help
to change this situation. I would be honored if you decided to consider
this recommendation of mine. I thank you in advance and assure you that I
will work very hard for your reelection.

Respectfully yours,

YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE


------------------------------

Subject: 6. Archives of the Hungarian Lobby

     The searchable archive of the Hungarian Lobby is located at

                 http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/

                    Text only digest are at URL

                http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ftp/archive/

                 Important documents can be found at

                 http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ftp/docs/

    The latter two directories can be reached via Anonymous FTP at
               ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hl/archive/
               ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hl/docs/

     Articles sent to the Hungarian Lobby are posted daily in digest form
to the soc.culture.magyar Usenet group. You should be able to find our
digests at any Usenet archives that stores documents from
soc.culture.magyar.


------------------------------

Subject: 7. HunOR - Hungarian Online Resources

     HunOR is a collection of people and services which was formed to
provide information about Hungary and Hungarian Americans. It is
maintained by the UMCP Hungarian American Association
(http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/) Currently it consists of:

*  Hahn - Hungarian American HyperNews, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hahn/)
*  HAL  - Hungarian American List, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/)
*  HIR  - Hungarian Information Resources, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/)
*  HL   - Hungarian Lobby, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/)
etc...


------------------------------

Subject: 8. Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ

Further information about other Hungarian Internet sources can be found at
the following sites :

*  http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/
*  http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/
*  ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/soc.culture.magyar/
*  ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq


------------------------------

Subject: 9. Useful Addresses

HUNGARIAN OFFICIALS AND ORGANIZATIONS:
Gyula Horn: 
Arpad Goncz: 
Peto Ivan:  
MTI:  
MVSZ:  
Szulofoldunk Radio: 

EUROPEAN OFFICIALS:
Carl Bildt EC negotiator for Bosnia: 
Max van der Steel, EC Commissioner for Minorities:
 Fax: 011-31-70-363-5910

LOCAL HL CONTACTS/ADVISERS:

EUROPE:





USA:




CANADA:



ASIA:


N E W S P A P E R S:

EUROPEAN:
All Papers:  http://www.dds.nl/~kidon/papers.html
Reuters in Romania: fax: 011-401-615-8448
The Guardian: 
The Economist: 
The Independent: 
Budapest Week: 

CANADIAN TV:
CTV: 

AMERICAN NEWSPAPER NAMES-States (Fax numbers) E-mail
ARIZONA
The Arizonia Daily Star-AZ, E-mail: 
CALIFORNIA
The Fresno Bee-CA (209-441-6050)
The Press-Enterprise-CA (909-782-7630)
The Press Democrat-CA, E-mail: 
The Sacramento Bee-CA, E-Mail: (916-321-1109), E-Mail: 
The San Diego-CA (619-293-2338)
San Jose Mercury News-CA, E-Mail: 
San Francisco Cronicle-CA (415-512-81960)
San Francisco Examiner-CA (415-777-8708), E-Mail: 
The Los Angeles Times-CA (213-237-7676)
The Orange County Register-CA (714-543-3904)
Contra Costa Times-CA (510-977-8410)
Daily News-CA (818-713-3029)
COLORADO
Gazette Telegraph-CO (719-636-0333), E-Mail: 
The Denver Post-CO, E-Mail:
Rocky Mountain News-CO (303-892-5081)
CONNECTICUT
The Hartford Courant-CT (203-520-3176), E-Mail: 
New Haven Register-CT (203-865-7894)
WASHINGTON DC
The Washington Post-DC (202-334-7126), E-Mail: 
                                               
The Washngton Times-DC (202-832-2206)
DELAWARE
The News Journal-DE (302-324-5518)
FLORIDA
Daytona Beach News Journal-FL (904-258-8470), E-Mail: 
Sun Sentinel-FL (305-356-4333), E-Mail: 
News-Press-FL (813-332-7581)
Tampa Tribune-FL, E-Mail: 
The Florida Times Union-FL (904-359-4400)
The Ledger-FL (813-687-7916)
Sarasota Herald Tribune-FL, E-Mail: 
The Orlando Sentinel-FL (407-420-5042)
St. Petersburg Times-FL (813-893-8671)
The Palm Beach Post-FL (407-820-4136)
GEORGIA
Augusta Chronicle-GA (706-722-7403), E-Mail: 
ILLINOIS
Daily Herald-IL (708-818-9187)
Chicago Sun Times-IL (312-321-2920)
INDANA
The Evansville Courier-IN (812-464-7484)
The Journal Gazette-IN (219-461-8648), E-Mail: 
The Indianapolis Star-IN (317-633-1174)
KENTUCKY
Lexington Herald-Leader-KY (606-231-3454)
The Courier-Journal-KY (502-582-4075), E-Mail: 
LOUISIANA
The Advocate-LA, E-Mail: 
The Times-Picayune-LA (504-826-3636)
The Times-LA (318-459-3392), E-Mail: 
MASSACHUSSETTS
Christian Science Monitor-MA, E-Mail: 
The Boston Globe-MA (617-929-3318), E-Mail: 
Boston Herald-MA, E-Mail: 
The Patriot Ledger-MA (617-786-7298), E-Mail: 
Telegram & Gazette-MA (508-793-9313)
MARYLAND
The Sun-MD (410-332-6670)
MAINE
Portland Press Herald-ME (207-780-9443)
MICHIGAN
The Flint Journal-MI (810-767-9480), E-Mail: 
The Grand Rapids Press-MI (616-459-1502), E-Mail: 
MINNESOTA
Star Tribune-MN (612-673-4835), E-Mail: 
St. Paul Pioneer Press-MN (612-222-5527)
MISSISSIPI
The Clarion Ledger-MS (601-961-7159)
NEBRASKA
Omaha World Herald-NE, E-Mail: 
NORTH CAROLINA
News & Observer-NC (919-829-4872), E-Mail: 
Winston-Salem Journal-NC (910-727-7424)
NEW HAMPSHIRE
The Union Leader-NH (603-668-0040)
NEW JERSEY
The Record-NJ (201-646-4403), E-Mail: 
Ashbury Park Press-NJ (908-922-6326)
The Star-Ledger-NJ (201-565-0422)
The Press of Atlantic City-NJ (609-272-7059), E-Mail: 
NEW MEXICO
Albaquerque Journal-NM (505-823-3499), E-Mail: 
NEVADA
Los Vegas Review Journal-NV (702-383-4665)
Las Vegas Sun-NV (702-383-7264)
NEW YORK
Times-Union-NY (518-489-5877)
Times Herald-Record-NY (914-343-6414)
The New York Daily News-NY (212-661-2597)
The New York Times-NY (212-556-3622), E-Mail:
                                             
New York Review of Books-NY, E-Mail: 
The Wall Street Journal-NY (212-416-2658)
Democrat and Chronicle-NY (716-232-3027)
OHIO
Akron Beacon Journal-OH (216-376-9235)
Dayton Daily News-OH (513-225-2088), E-Mail: 
The Plain Dealer-OH, E-Mail:  
The Blade-OH (419-245-6471)
The Columbus Digest-OH, E-Mail: 
OREGON
The Oregonian-OR (503-227-5306)
PENNSYLVANIA
The Philadelphia Inquirer-PA (215-854-2372)
RHODE ISLAND
The Providence Journal-RI (401-277-7461)
SOUTH CAROLINA
The Greenville-SC (803-298-4805)
TENNESSEE
The Commercial Appeal-TN (901-529-5833)
Knoxville News Sentinel-TN, E-Mail: 
The Tennessean-TN (615-259-8875)
TEXAS
Austin American-Statesman-TX (512-445-3557)
Fort Worth Star-Telegram-TX (817-390-7831)
The Houston Chronicle-TX (713-220-6677)
San Antonio Express-News-TX (512-225-2553)
UTAH
The Salt Lake Tribune-UT (801-237-2022)
VIRGINIA
Daily Press-VA (804-247-3747), E-Mail: 
The Virginia Pilot-VA (804-446-2983), E-Mail: 
Richmond Times-Dispatch-VA (804-775-8019)
WASHINGTON
Seattle Post-Intelligencer-WA (206-448-8165)
The Spokesman Review-WA (509-459-5234)
The News-Tribune-WA (206-552-7092)
WISCONSIN
The Milwaukee Journal-WI (414-224-2469)
WEST VIRGINIA
The Charleston Gazette-WV (304-348-5133)


------------------------------

Subject: 10. Disclaimers

     The list is provided, as is, to people interested in lobbying for
Hungarian causes. It is provided with the intention of helping to keep
Hungarians and their friends informed and in closer contact with each
other. By posting to this list you agree that the content represents your
personal opinion. In no event will the Hungarian Lobby, the University of
Maryland (UMD), its employees and affiliates, or the list administrators
be liable for the opinions or materials posted. Neither the Hungarian
Lobby nor UMD reviews the materials prior their submittion to this list
and cannot stop their distribution. The messages distributed by the
Hungarian Lobby come without any warranty. If you decide to use them, you
do so at your own risk.


------------------------------

With best personal regards:
Bela Liptak and members of the UMCP Hungarian American Association

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      End of Hungarian Lobby FAQ
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Just for the record, "Andras Szucs" has only been removed from this list
one time, the time that we are currently sometimes discussing.

When "Janos Kis" precipitated the changeover from open posting to
subscribers-only posting, some long-time members of the list who dis-
agreed with my decision regarding "Kis" unsubscribed or refused to
subscribe and ceased posting in preference.  Among those who refused
to post to the list "on principle" was one Andras Pellionisz (the good
doctor--who for years was conspicuous by his absence on Hungary list,
though he was active on FORUM--had made his debut with the Great IMF
Lawsuit and sequential discussion).  N.B. he was not asked to leave,
nor was he removed -- he chose to depart in a proverbial huff.

At that time, "Andras Szucs" quite consciously remained an active
registered member, whose postings for quite some time carried a
large and rather incoherent "warning" message about this list...
There was a period of time when "Szucs" was fairly quiet, but the
accidental cross-posting of something about the "revolution-war of
independence" debate set him off here, which was a spillover of stuff
that apparently hadn't died down on FORUM since the October anniversary
of 1956.

[By the way, what's at stake there is quite simply an attempt by a
narrow political extremist group to appropriate the entire memory and
meaning of 1956 for their version of history -- it has not much to do
with what happened then, and a lot to do with attempts to legitimate
a peculiar -- in every sense of the word -- political program now.
Maybe Sam Stowe has met people who say "we" call it only "The War
Between the States" not "The Civil War"?  It's something remotely
analogous, I think...]

In the meantime, Andras Pellionisz in his own persona as sysadmin of the
site at silliconvalley.com was removed for three months from access to
the HIX server, for unauthorized reproducing of material that he took
from the HIX services.  Perhaps it was this incident that Ferenc Novak
was thinking of when he refers to the three months?

Of course it's perfectly easy to get confused trying to keep straight
all the different personae arriving -- coincidentally, of course --
from one particular direction...

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Two questions (to Eva):

1. When Teleki Pal, unwilling to commit Hungary to the German attack on
Yugoslavia, died of gunshot wounds, it was officially reported as suicide.
I knew Teleki as the national Hungarian boy scout leader, and knew, that he
was a devout Catholic, who, in our opinion, would not have committed
suicide.  What does history say about this?. My understanding was that he
was shot by the Germans.

2. What happened to Ortutay.? I used to greatly admire his works on
Hungarian Folk art (Magyar motivumok gyujtemenye, Erdelyi Helikon kiadasa
valamikor a harmincas evekben), which I don't have,  and his collection of
Ballads (szekely nepballadak) with Gyorgy Buday's beautiful woodcuts, which
I do have. In 1992 we went to Kecskemet to visit his ethnic museum, but
were told that he was then 'persona non grata' , and his part of the
collection was closed.  I was upset, telling the curator that I am not
interested in Ortutay's politics, only his work in the field of Hungarian
ethnic culture, but she just shrugged her shoulders. What did he do?

Dear Eva et al;

At 06:45 AM 5/6/96 -0700, Eva wrote:

>At 01:10 AM 5/6/96 -0400,  Ferenc Novak, who is a "great friend of mine",
wrote:

>>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
>> >... it is becoming clear to me that East
>>>Europeans don't have a clue how to conduct a "debate" meaning a "discussion
>>>of question by considering opposed arguments." The worst example of "debate"
>>>in the bad sense of the word is FORUM, the Hungarian-language list. There
>>>debates are simply personal attacks. If we don't like someone's ideas, let's
>>>attack him/her as a person. Let's say that he/she is a pathological liar.
>>
>>Right on!  As when someone named Eva Balogh called someone whom she never
>> met, but whose idea she disagreed with, a senile old man  ;-).
>
>        Sure thing. And I repeated it a few days ago. Because I don't quite
>know what one ought to call a lawyer who allegedly practiced law in
>Australia and became so famous that he was named a royal councilor (or
>something similar) and who with all this legal knowledge wanted to sue the
>World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in a class-action suit at
>the, and now listen carefully, Supreme Court of the United States!!! I think
>actually that I was quite nice to the old gentleman. I could have called him
>an ignorant idiot.
>
>        This was not the question of agreement or disagreement. Disagreement
>was not the reason for thinking that the old man lost some of his marbles.
>The reason was his total ignorance of international law, total lack of
>knowledge of what the Supreme Court of the United States is all about, and
>the ridiculousness of his ideas. I thought that such a class-action suit, if
>it ever launched, would be thrown out of court (and not the Supreme Court!)
>for lack of standing. But in the meantime, Hungary, on whose behalf this
>suit was initiated, would have been made ridiculous in the eyes of the world.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
 Uh, sorry, folks, but according to a couple of attorneys I know, one of
whom is a very experienced and well-known human and civil rights attorney,
besides tax and criminal attorney, technically the Australian gentleman
could indeed do just what he wants to do, and the case might not be thrown
out.  We recently did have a case (and it was reported in quite a number of
national newspapers) in which a U.S. entity was sued by foreigners in the
U.S. on behalf of foreigners--and there was even a Supreme Court ruling
saying that it could be done, and the loser did indeed have to pay.  The key
is simply that a U.S. entity has done wrong to some one--under U.S. laws.
We Americans are expected to abide by the best of our ideals and laws, even
in other countries.  This is also why some of the suits about the Bhopal
incident are also taking place in the U.S.--not all in India.

As for embarrassing Hungary to sue the International Monetary Fund and World
Bank, actually many Hungarian Americans (please notice I'm not even saying
most, since I haven't taken any polls), and even some educated
non-Hungarians (Mexican Americans can particularly identify with this
situation) find it odd that the Hungarian government has not taken advantage
of the French World War I documents, and the precedent of the U.S. and
Mexico (the 1846 war we declared and annexed half of Mexico with, etc.) and
the U.S. and the Native American nations, and sued both the U.S. and Triple
Entente nations for illegal expropriations, war damages, etc..

How do Hungarians think the Mexicans got the millions they did in the Gadsen
Purchase (1853)?  Why do they think the Clinton Administration (and a few
before it) bend over backward today to prevent discrimination, grant huge
subsidies to the Mexican American community, not to mention bail-outs of
Mexico itself, etc.  It's all guilt payments.  And the Mexicans didn't just
quietly go away and take anything the U.S. dished out that wasn't nice, or
usorious interest rates, etc.,  without cooking up something to return the
"favor."  The U.S. has been forced, yes forced, to lower its rates to
Mexico, and forgive billions in loans--all on the threat of default of the
entire.  And yet, it still encourages everybody to invest, doesn't it?  We
have to do something to keep the country from going commie, or sending the
rest of its population sans resources to us.  Hungary could play much of the
same games--and win.  The Hungarian government can't be much more
embarrassed by the overseas Hungarians than what it has already done, and is
still doing, to itself.  It it wants respect, in this world it has to demand
it. Unfortunately, we still respect more those who can give us hell than
those who can give us heaven...

As a further example of how successful the current nicey-nice polite
policies of the U.S. government have been in obtaining respect for
Hungarians, or Hungary, please see my newest posting on what a U.S.
government contractor is  currently doing to Hungarians in Hungary--at the
same time that the U.S. government itself is proposing to reward Romania
with permanent unconditional  MFN status--for doing to Hungary (and
continuing to this day) what the U.S. did to Mexico, and then to Mexican
Americans for a hundred years--but _stopped_ doing during the 1960's.  Are
these the kind of awards you'd expect, Eva, for being nicey-nice?  I repeat,
it's not many of the overseas Hungarians these days who can exceed the
embarrassment of the Hungarian government...

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA

tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

please unscribe me. I will not have email access until the first of
September 1996. Please  re-ad me to the list then.

Does anyone know anything about the tennis scene in Hungary--lessons,
schools, etc?  Any help here is greatly appreciated.

Mike Bachers

     (if you don't mind, please respond via
e-mail)
*******************************************************************************
"Nevermind all those people who tell you to eat right, exercise often, and play
it safe--they're all gonna feel really dumb someday when they die of nothing!"

What a way to end a surgery recovery and vacation.  I pick up the Sunday
paper and in the "A" section, first article in the "World News" is about 10
column inches describing Mitsubishi style abuse of Hungarian workers by a
U.S. contractor to the U.S. armed forces while Hungarians are trying to help
the U.S. forces in Bosnia.  And the managing director of the contracting
company claims there's no problem, that the workers are making all this up.

Then I read the e-mail and discover the Clinton administration and some
bi-partisan friends in Congress are trying to get through as quickly as
possible, permanent unconditional MFN status for Romania.  In today's local
paper, the articles about "Cinco de Mayo" note the majority of Mexicans and
Mexican Americans who have life much better in the U.S. than what Hungarians
get in Romanian expropriated Transylvania still resent the U.S. and darned
well demand further repayment--the current levels of immigration are widely
called "reconquista."  Now considering the Clinton administration has been
doing everything it can to give billions to Mexican Americans and the
Mexican government, and Rep. Tom Lantos has been against unconditional,
permanent MFN for communist China, it strongly suggests that besides the
obvious hypocritical amorality in these gentlement, Hungarians and Hungary
are generally considered lower than worm's dung, even when they are nice.
Has anyone here ever heard the old saying one might as well be hung for a
sheep as for a lamb?  When do we get the picture and finally stop being
nice?  When we're all in our graves and the Romanian flag waves over all of
Hungary--and the U.S. bails out the Romanian government as a reward?

I'm only one person, but I'll be damned if I'm going to just roll over and
say, "please President Clinton, or Congressman So-and-so, kick me again, I
deserve it for being a miserable half-breed Hungarian American who doesn't
belong in Europe or in the U.S. in the first place."  If the rest of you
have no self-respect and want to be good little Marxists, or British, or
"Americans" or French or whatever, and think Hungary doesn't have a right to
exist, or its people the right to fair and equal treatment and
respect,that's  up to you and your conscience.  For those who want to do
something, here's the article, and the letter I then sent to the CEO of the
_parent_ company.  I also have a plan already for triggering a Congressional
investigation and some help (including a non-Hungarian Congressional
candidate with very good connections) lined up, if "step one" (letters,
calls, etc. to the CEO) don't work.  This 3-step strategy was partly his idea.

"SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS"article--Sunday, May 5, 1996, page 22Axxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

GRIPES HIT US FIRM IN EUROPE

Taszar, Hungary (AP)  Some Hungarians employed in the kitchen serving U.S.
troops backing up the peace force in Bosnia claim Americans are sexually
harrassing and exploiting them.

        There are few complaints against GI's.  Nearly all involve the
American civilian staff of the local subsidiary of Houston (Texas)-based
Brown and Root, which employs nearly 200 Hungarians as kitchen helpers,
construction workers and drivers.

"Formed a Union"
        The Hungarians formed a union last week to press their greivances
against International American Products Ltd., sending complaints to the U.S.
Embassy in Budapest and to Prime Minister Gyula Horn.

        The managing director of the Brown and Root subsidiary suggested
that most of them had no reason to complain.

        Szilvia Nyers, a kitchen worker, said her American boss, "feels me
up on the pretext of a body search every day."

        Cook Csaba Horvath alleged that the American contractors "do with us
as they please," including cutting wages by two-thirds without warning.

        Julia Varga, another cook, said an American employee of
International  American Products recently offered her 40,000 forints (more
than $300) a month if she moved in with him.

        Kitchen worker Ildiko Szabo said she was offered 20,000 forints
($130) by a GI to have sex with him.

"Giving Them Jobs"
        "They regard us a dirty, stupid and backward," Szabo said of her
American Products employers.  "I had all sorts of ideas about Americans and
America, but what we got was totally different."

        Brian K. Williams of Camden, North Carolina, managing director of
International American Products, refused to discuss the allegations in
detail, but said: "We are giving them jobs and try to treat them fairly."

        In Houston, Brown and Root official Jay Kraker said he had not heard
of the accusations.  U.S. military officials had no immediate comment.

        The complaints have cast a cloud on what both sides have sought to
depict as exemplary relations since the 3,500 American soldiers stationed
here began arriving in the region last December.

        The soldiers--most of them in logistic and supply positions for the
60,000-member NATO-led force policing Bosnia's peace--have tried to maintain
good relations in this village of 2,000 and neighboring Kaposvar, a city of
80,000 about 50 miles southwest of Budapest.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The advice I received (from someone who does know a lot about these things)
was a three stage attack.  Stage 1: letters, faxes, and calls--a deluge--to
the CEO of the _parent company_.  As my advisor said, "s__t rolls down hill,
especially in the corporate U.S..  You bug him, and he will definitely pass
on his discomfort to those beneath him."  The letters should include a very
short deadline for recalling the errant workers and the stonewalling
managers.  He suggested about one week.  The letters also need to specify
the  consequences of not complying, and the size of the Hungarian community.
He has to understand we are capable of carrying out the consequences, and
have considerable political organization and experience in this country.

His suggestion for consequences is "Stage 2"--demanding a Congressional
investigation, with reconsideration of the Brown and Root contracts,
generally.  He's willing to help--lots--because, "this is an election year,
and both the Republicans and Democrats are anxious to win the good will of
the female voters, and this is definitely an issue that appeals in this
regard."  We'd do the investigation in the House, because all the members of
the House of Representatives are up for re-election, and thus they are
generally more sensitive.

Ok, so here's the letter I wrote to Mr. Tommy Knight (yes, that is indeed
how he insists on being addressed), CEO; Brown and Root, Inc.; 4100 Clinton
Drive (no joking on that one either), Houston, Texas 77001.  If you send a
letter send it Priority Mail--in a nice, large red, white and blue envelope.
His fax number is 713-676-7799.  His office's telephone number is 713-676-8291.

(letter sent by yours truly)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Mr. Knight:

Attached is a copy of a newspaper article that appeared in the "San Jose
Mercury News," yesterday, describing the abominable behavior of
employers--and managers--of a subsidiary of your company in Hungary--where
the U.S. troops are currently depending upon the good will of that country
to enable them to do their already difficult and dangerous task in Bosnia.
Transcripts are already beginning to be circulated among the thousands of
Hungarian Americans on the internet--a sizeable portions of whom are all
cousins of the people mentioned in this article.  Since the Hungarian
community has been politically and economically active and well organized
for more than 30 years, it should be no additional surprise to learn that
Hungarian Americans on the internet are connected to more than 100 community
groups nationwide, with regional and national umbrella coordinating groups.

Hungary is a small nation, and Somogy county even smaller.  In 1700, after
the Turks were finally removed from that area, there were fewer than 3500
families in the entire county--most already related.  Since that time,
nearly the entire population that exists today is no more than 7th cousin to
one another.  Most are considerably closer.  As prior to the post World War
II communist take-over, this was one of the best educated, most socially,
economically and intellectually advanced regions, a larger than usual number
of refugees from this area, forced to leave or be killed by Nazis and later
communists, understandably ended up in the U.S..

Hungarians have given much to the U.S.--even its very cavalry founded under
Stephen Kovacs in the Revolutionary War and, since World War II alone, the
atomic bomb, and a litany of other technological and scientific
developments.  The current CEO of Intel is a Hungarian American, as just one
example.  This nation would not be the technological giant it is today
without the talents, skills, and hard work and loyalty of nearly 2 million
Hungarians, mostly in the professions, especially in high technology.

They have also been heavily involved in the military and the departments of
State and Defense--including in the successful policies that help end the
Soviet Union.  They are the same blood and bones, and had the same education
as the people your employees are currently mistreating.  While your
grandmothers--and even mothers--had no right to even a paycheck in their own
names, or credit, or anything else for that matter, Hungarian women
inherited  social titles from their fathers and were guaranteed, by law, in
their own name and right, various percentages of their parents' estates.
They could divorce, hold jobs, and have their own bank accounts.  The U.S.
was the "backward nation" until the 1960's when it came to the treatment of
women--and its general level of education still can't hold a candle to the
poorest, most out of the way schools anywhere in Hungary.

It is the American Texan children--as amply evidenced by the quality of the
very workers you sent to Hungary--whom are the ignorant, arrogant, dirty and
backward boors--not the Hungarians.  The majority of your underpaid and
mistreated Hungarian workers speak English and have the savvy to organize a
tough union and send a formal protest--in written English--to the U.S.
Embassy, and your little wannabe lords can barely speak, read and write
their own language, much less any other--but they want to pretend their so
superior.  Get them out of there, now.

I trust that somewhere you have family, daughters, sisters, whatever, for
whom you care, and whom you would believe if they came to you with a tale of
abuse by others.  I trust you would not think of mistreating your workers in
Texas--under the eyes of numerous U.S. and Texan government authorities--in
this manner.  If a Texan heard his female relatives were being abused as
ours have been by your workers, just what do you think this Texan, or any
other, would do to the workers who did these things?  Our people have thus
far demonstrated remarkeable restraint.  They didn't tolerate for long the
Russians doing these kinds of things.  For your workers sake, as well as for
our own people, I repeat, get them out of Taszar and Hungary, now.  No
Russian soldier who was ever in Hungary currently envies your workers.
There is a limit to any human being's restraint the longer the abuse of
his/her relatives continues.

I hope then that you will understand that I can only say you have about one
week to recall the workers and managers of American Products Ltd. whom are
described/identified in the complaints--if not the entire subsidiary, based
upon its unhelpful attitude expressed by its "managing director."  If at the
end of the week we do not see this happening, we in the U.S. will contact
our friends in Washington and demand a Congressional investigation into this
situation, and a reconsideration of your company's contracts with the U.S.
government.  I'm sure you, like we, are aware this is an election year and
both political parties are anxious to obtain the good will of women, ethnic
voters, and the "little working people."  We may or may not succeed in
causing the U.S. government to cancel its contracts with your company, but
I'm sure such an investigation would not be profitable to you.  Therefore, I
trust we will be hearing/reading of more positive, rapid actions on the part
of your company, very soon?

Sincerely,

Mrs. Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

end of posting

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Kedves Olvasok,

Recent events on the HIX lists by one Szucs Andras (Pellionisz?) has now
spilled over to the HAL and HL lists. Now there are questions arising by many
whether or not the HL-list is a safe haven for those of the extremist element.

When I first joined the HL-list, I was under the impression that the list would
not fall under any political ideology. The aims of the list is solely to
preserve the heritage, language, culture, and environment for those inside &
outside the borders of Hungary. I'm not belittling the efforts of those who
strictly abide by non-political guidelines (Eljen!). The work done on the list,
so far should be praised, but efforts will be for not if the ugly head of
politics shows itself, as it seems to be doing so now. We must remember not
only to deal with the injustices that are being done to Hungarians abroad, but
we also should be dealing with what's going on here on these lists as well.

Many may not agree with Eva Balogh, Gabor Ferencsik, or what anyone else says
on these lists. It's your prerogative, but it doesn't justify anybody making
any slanderous, malacious, or personal remarks about anyone or anyones beliefs,
without any knowledge of that person or events. Granted, I myself have been no
angel when comes to debates, but I know my limits. I know the HL-list is an
open forum and anybody can come and go as they please, but when another
organization tries to use the name of HL-list to further their goals without
the approval by the list manager, list owner, and subscribers, then there is a
problem, a BIG ONE. I, myself, don't not want to ally myself with any extremist
element, whether it be your hardcore leftist or your hardcore right. I don't
want a label to be stuck to the list or myself for that matter.

The only political involvment of the HL-list should only be contact (be it
notifing them of happenings in the area, asking for their help, or appealing to
them) with those who hold positions of power, whether or not you agree with
their political beliefs, that's all. We should be a neutral organization and
anyone on the list who uses this for some other purpose not approved by the
HL-list should be delt with.

So, I ask, Professor Liptak to launch a ban of those who use hide under the
banner of the HL-list for their own twisted goals or at the very least speak
out against those involved in such activities that would harm the existence of
the HL-list. Secondly, launch a campaign against Nemzet @ siliconvalley.com not
to use HL-list material without our consent or at the very least write a
disclaimer. I been so wanting to prove to myself that the "Hungarian's can't
get together for anything." label is a false one, but I'm finding few things
that will support that. This list was attractive from its genesis because of
the lack of politics, but now it's a different story. Now I'm not sure anymore.
I hope, Liptak Ur, that you can prove me and that saying wrong. Otherwise, I,
too, will, regretfully, resign from the Hungarian Lobby if there is no course
of action taken within 72hrs.

Action should not only be taken by those on the HL-list, but by those of you
reading this as well. Many on these lists are offended by what Szucs & Co. has
to say, but now is the time to act. I call on Sam Stowe, Jim Doepp, Joe Szalai,
Eva Durant, Eva Balogh, Martha Bihari, Celia Fabos-Becker, Aniko Dunford, Gabor
Elek, and others who had plenty to say about our friends from silicon way to
back me up on this one, for once.

Respectfully yours,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:

>3.  What makes you feel so superior as to decide who has guts and who
>doesn't?  Is the capacity to match the opposition in mudslinging your
>criterion?  If you are frothing at the mouth just like your opponent, it
is
>going to be hard to convince the others that you are any better than the
guy
>you are taking on.
>
>Peace,
>
>Ferenc
Why sign "Peace" when that's the last thing you want? You still don't
convince me you're anything but a late-comer emerging from under his rock
after the real threat has passed. But reading your latest foray against
Eva B., I'll bet you were just all up in arms about Szucs's attack on her.
Sam Stowe

Czifra just don't ban anyone.  Okay.  Let them speak.  'Don't like it?
 Pg.Down.  Don't ban them. Please.  Sandor

Szervusz,

An odd question?

Anyone know any Hungarian BOXERs that fight internationally??? I met one on
the plane to Budapest who was comming back from Las Vegas, NV. I'm just
looking for names.

Koszonom -- jennh